Revel Bikes Founder Adam Miller on Their New Bikes, MTB Geometry, Bike Development & More... Ep. 130 [Podcast]

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Revel Bikes founder Adam Miller joins us again on the MTB Podcast to talk about all things Revel and what they have been up to these days. Tune in to learn more about what goes into developing a bike, behind the scenes industry action, some epic listener questions and more!

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welcome to episode 130 of the MTB podcast presented and hosted by
worldwide Cyclery I am Jeff I am Liam and I am Adam Adam Miller from Revel
bikes founder of Revel bikes is here to join us on the podcast and Jared is not
here this episode he's out you know what Jared's doing I think he's uh at his cabin oh wow siing on a whiskey right
now yeah probably not as good as my Johnny Walker Blue Label definitely not yeah poured over frozen strawberries
which do nothing but they add Ambiance to the drink they look nice I'm kind of jealous yeah thank you that's what I was
thinking too um in this episode we will discuss all sorts of things we intend to
pick Adam's brain about creating new bikes iterating on fan favorite bikes and all things bike design and
production including a bunch of questions directly from Revel bikes fans
which is which is pretty cool uh past episodes with you were LinkedIn the show notes episode 92 and 108 your third time
returning to the podcast thanks Adam it's great to be back people love hearing about it long time listener
first time caller Adam Miller people people definitely enjoy
hearing uh your thoughts on a lot of things most of the feedback I've gotten in the past was it's way cool to hear
about bike design and development from somebody who owns a bike brand and also your take on Asian manufacturing those
are like the two compliments I get when people talk about you on the Pod so cool I like talking about just trying to
boost you up pre-episode and I think you're very uh transparent about a lot
of things yeah where some bike brands think they're NASA and like want to hold everything to their chest and like y all
make the same things from the same five factories like you know well except you know way better of course well yeah lots
of well that was a bit of an exaggeration don't take it that far yeah that that was that was a little you know don't take that to totally seriously
little downplay in it but you know what I mean it's fun to talk about what we do and how we make bikes and I think yeah we're not setting
people to the Moon we're making bikes that are supposed to be really fun and made to have a good time and so it's fun to talk about it so I'm glad to be here
agreed cool well should we jump into a quick little segment here I I had a new
segment by the way but you could read off the first segment Zach's words of wisdom Zach's words of wisdom uh uh w w
he said this the other day everybody dies but not everybody lives
wow that's pretty good profound I know once again profound and likely not original for Z def not original he lives
by it and he says these things with so much conviction you're like wow Zach that's was good riveting was good that
riveting yeah exactly you go your new segment yeah I have a new segment I
thought uh I was presented I'm presented with some great testimonials every so often and I figured we should do a new
segment called fantastic testimonials and this is the first one that I would would like to read uh it was actually
sent to Kettle but that's you know same stuff so it says Dear Kettle people I have purchased three products the past
six months Wayward short sleeve skidmark shorts and fleece line Escapade coat outstanding value Performance
Construction fit and wear my new favorite items wearing the out of this coat in Texas trips to the north
are cold I love the lightweight vented back that was a brilliant design then it goes to say Jeff comma you annoy me on
the podcast please write and I can coach you on how to be more effective and L of a douche waffle signed
[Laughter] T that's phenomenal that's fantastic
testimonial he really likes his gear he likes he really likes the kettle stuff and he gave you constructive criticism
and he gave me some great constructive criticism thank you T we appreciate it
and if anyone else wants to send in a testimonial please do and maybe you'll be featured in our new segment called fantastic testimonials we are welcome to
all did you did you write him no I didn't write we don't know who T is he
sent an email okay Z sent this over maybe we should reply and say you know I'm open to uh some coaching lessons it'
be funny T and that was troen sometimes he'll just say t but he
says Texas so it's definitely not him yeah it's great testimonial so I don't I mean you know I I do my best to try not
be a douche waffle on the podcast but everyone just perceives you and feels you differently you know so what are you
going to do just got to be yourself you just got to you just got to do it do do your thing yeah I personally love
waffles yeah waffles are good waffles of Pancakes for me really like waffles but you know what I do too I like better
it's like syrup holding cups if it's a good waffle a good waffle always wins but it's it's hard to find a
really good waffle that's true got true you got to seek out the good ones you still didn't answer the
question waffles or pancakes well sounded like if a waffle is good he likes it if it's a good waffle 100%
waffle if not pancakes are a safer bet if you don't know what you're going to get yeah get a pancake yeah yeah that's
a good point yeah like if you went to denny's you'd probably just play it safe and get get the pancakes as long as
there's bacon on them if I'm going to Denny's it's 2: a.m. and I don't care what comes out movs over my facts that's how they
stay in business yeah I haven't been to Denny's in so long probably since I was 23 and I went at 2 a.m. yep yeah that's
a rough place to go at 2 a.m. I love the people there at 2 a.m. yeah great people watching yeah it's a good place it's a
good place um the next segment we have here which I change the name of slightly this is what happen this is what
happened when Jared leaves I just change the name of all the segments add segments and things sorry Jared uh bikes
rides and any random things we've been enjoying lately oh nice Adam start with you that probably fits us a little bit
better to be honest yeah yeah what do you got I had a great bike ride today here in Southern California there you go
it was 65 degrees and sunny out and we said is a touch chilly yeah everybody here said it was cold I was sweating the
second I walked out the door because I live in a place that has a lot of snow this time of year so um great ride today
super fun good to ride bikes before we sit down and talk about bikes true yeah
yeah besides that lots of skiing I live near a ski resort so y it's ski season right now for us winter time yep skiing
is fresh pow bra I can't wait for bu have you ever skied or snowboarded once snowboarded
one time yeah yeah you didn't really like it that much I just went to Big Bears bad snow I didn't know what I was doing yeah I don't I can't even barely
even say I snowboarded I did snowboard and I think I like rolled a couple rollers and yeah but I was young and you
also live where you can ride your bike all year round so that that makes a lot of sense and also when I was younger
learning this stuff surfing's really good this time of year so I'd rather had surfed which was basically free if you
could get a surfboard and true snowboarding as a teenager like you can you can't afford that is unless your
family's into it so you know a good tagline for surfing could be free with with the occasional punch in the
face very true you're really selling it yeah sounds like so much fun it's true
it's like it is very it's a territorial sport it's a little dangerous out there a lot of grungy people do it so it is
free with the occasional punch in the face it's on my bucket list to learn how to surf yeah I can bike ski can't surf
yeah one day go take a surf lesson in malib next time I come out to visit you guys we're going to go surfing you
should it's probably pretty cheap this time of year might be fun let's go yeah I might takon you got to do that on your
own would be cool I'll take you on the soft to there you go I'm not sure what that is but I feel like it's probably
like a beginner kind of a situation like training wheels on a bike but for surfing that's what I need yep what uh
bikes rides and any random things have you been enjoying lately Liam well random things uh I've been working on
the van a lot trying to get that going for summer new van van life van life I
will soon be parking in the parking lot and living at worldwide cylo that's the
way to do it it's good call no I'm just kidding I wish though I'd save a lot of money um fine with me security guard I
know look at that when Jeff actually you just found a new living Jeff actually was fine like when we had issues when we
first moved here he's like if anyone wants to sleep in the parking lot on a van go right ahead yeah it makes sense
we have people sleeping in Vans all the time in the rebel parking lot I love when it happens yeah it's good security
great uh so yeah I've been doing a lot of that and uh some gravel bike stuff and cross
country bike stuff and I just did The Rock cobbler event over the weekend Rock cobbler Rock cobbler the infamous gravel
ride in Bakersfield California oh yeah Bakersfield cobbled some rocks I don't know if people realize the reputation of
Bakersfield that aren't from California but you about Bakersfield I was about to say tell me about Bakersfield I got off
the freeway and it still light out and because I got there Friday night and
every single person I saw was the the exact people you think would live in and
this was like this isn't called oils Dale Bakersfield which is like the Bakers field a lot of Bakers field is
actually quite nice yeah it's not that bad it's just you know Suburban housing developments in the middle of nowhere but um Oildale is you know I think the
name is great yeah it's just all oil fields outside there but yeah there's there's some characters out there but uh
the rock cobbler is a cool event it goes all through like private farmlands so you can't really ride this route normally um and I probably was in like
10 ft of like 50 cows during 7 hours of riding this one point near the end we just turned a corner and there's like a
thousand sheep like right yeah sheep right in front of us wow huh I think they're sheep I mean I was riding by
pretty fast but I think I know what a sheep looks like um it was good though ex I I
puzzled over Tire setup a lot because of we got anywhere from 2 to 14 in of rain
in Southern California the week leading up to this yeah I heard it flooded everywhere yeah the media went crazy
said it flooded everywhere Baker Fel didn't get as bad it wasn't too bad but the ground was really soft I went probably too narrow and Slick of
attire but I had a good time and it was fun you know type two fun and you put a
suspension Fork on your bike I put a suspension Fork on my Rebel Rover bike
yeah the Reel proof spec uh absolutely not okay I I didn't
think it was would why wouldn't it be technically it's not approved spec the reason is the fork is longer so because
the fork is longer it puts a little more stress on the overall bike and so we just the stock Fork is a pretty standard
390 mm axle to Crown Fork so we do all the testing around that so technically we say it's not approved but I also saw
that bike and I thought it was pretty cool it does change the GE raises of the BB it's not perfectly ideal but true I'm
not really going to take it off I thought it was really fun it looks like a Franken but the concept of a gravel
bike with suspension just feels your flat bar gravel bike is also a Franken bike in the other direction yeah it is
so yeah there's some strong opinions on gravel bikes here at this at this table right now I think some differences in I
can't ride them I tried I gave up thre in the tow now L has that bike it's not really like strong opinions it's just
different flavors yeah yeah yeah yeah but I still think his gravel bikes are really cool I just can't justify owning
both it's like gravel bike one drop bar that's a lot of gravel bik that's a lot of well I'd probably go flat bar like
hard tail rigid hard tail type of thing yeah but you know anyways we're talking
way too much about drop bars this a mountain bike podcast that is true facts moving
on I have not been riding too many bikes lately um mostly been running a bit I'm
doing a big hike yeah I know I know I'll tell the story stop laughing at me
mostly been uh running quite a bit because uh I'm I'm going to do a big sort of nearing trip in Ecuador later
this month that I'm excited about hiking Mount cotap paxi been riding the ranger a little rev Ranger bit around just
local stuff and yes recently uh just last week I was going to go on a huge
mountain bike ride uh this weekend on the new Rascal which we'll get to later
um but on Friday I went for a trail run there was a huge portion of the trail that was all flooded out alongside this
park and there's a wooden well looks like a wooden fence but it's made out of concrete and I've done this several
times before I just walk on the top of the fence to clear to clear the puddle
my shoes were all muddy and slippery and I slipped off the fence and I busted my ass bad
uh I got this massive probably 12 in Long giant scrape on the inner side of
my right thigh um and also ripped a huge chunk of skin out of my thumb on my left hand um if you're watching this on
YouTube we'll we'll put the photos up there sorry Lou you have to see those uh um so yeah I just now and it just hurts
super bad was way worse the day after and couldn't really pedal or walk or do anything so I just did nothing all
weekend um you know it's it's one of those things running running it's a
rough sport you shouldn't you shouldn't you shouldn't have got running in the first reminds me yeah reminds me one that old jackass song If you're going to
be dumb you got to be tough It's kind of what that reminded me of but for the record that was half a mile into it and
then I proceeded to finish the 3 and 1 half miles oh nice just like just going to keep running what would goggin do
yeah beding all over more just like a combination of embarrassment uh feeling ashamed feeling pissed off feeling like
you know what no matter what I just need this exercise bad so I'm just going to finish this run whether I'm bleeding or not who's going to carry the logs who's
who's going to carry the boats who's going to carry the boats who's going to carry these boats so I just kept running
so yeah that's that's uh sums up my last handful of days here so you know I'll get back on the bike soon enough here
was pedaling around a little bit and getting some more movement in this leg so yeah you'll be good to go soon I'll get there you just got to give up
running for good yeah biking I like running man I'm I'm more interested in being a multifaceted athlete like I want
to be able to swim well hike run mountain bike like do everything climb rocks all that sort of stuff lift
weights I want to be like very well-rounded do it all yeah impressive not many mountain bikers like to run I
feel like running and biking are kind of they're pry odd sometimes yeah Liam hates running but you did you were
forced to do it last winter cuz it was raining so much I ran a bit and then I do run like when we went to uh Taiwan
together I ramp I ramp up my running a little bit just so I can go on like a weekl long trip where there's no bikes
and I can keep my fitness and there's also like no gyms there so it's like you know I think most mornings I went out
and jogged around taipe yep um great way to see a new city too yeah and I do the same thing and like if I go to Mexico or
something it's not a non-bike trip planned I'll ramp up the running a little bit you literally just bring a pair of shoes with you and you can get
some exercise um and I do think it's a good cross chain activity I think it's good to have and I also think it's
good uh to know you can run from something if you need to are are you planning on eating to be
able to run from things I don't know if it's the cops or if it's you know I thought you going to say zombies a zombie apocalypse either one of the two
right like if I got a run I just want to be able to book five miles and then figure out what I'm doing I don't blame
you I grew up running and doing trons and all those things and now I only run when I'm on a trip internet actually
without a bike yeah it's the only time see I never ran a mile until like a year and a half ago in my life wow yeah look
at that not enough of a douche waffle I've never been graced with that
name uh I have um it's Jeff's new favorite
name so the real reason we've got Adam here it's an important thing you guys
are coming out with a version two of the Rascal which is the bike that you launched with originally original
launcher of Revel bikes which was in 2019 correct 2018 2019 just almost 5 years ago 2019 almost 5 years ago so you
guys launched with the Rascal and the rail and the Rascal well in my opinion
put you guys on the map in a big way because it was a one quiver 130 mil travel 29er fantastic bike worked
amazing obviously really made a big splash other bike the rail longer travel 275 bike awesome bike but in my opinion
what put you guys on the map in a big way and I know a lot of people wrote them including self loved them um The
Rascals so you guys are refining this thing um which is interesting so we' got some key differences here but it's a big
deal changing a bike that's a fan favorite and it's a tough that's a that's a heavy thing to carry because
you don't want to change it too much because people love it the way it is how many how many rasal have you had three
or two I you had a black one and a Sedona one y did you ever have a different color than black can't
remember I had that black one for a long time rode that one in New Zealand I just I just think that bike is uh was just so
versatile cuz I guess normally it spec with a 140 Fork but I put a 150 on mine it's like a 150 Fork 130 in the back and
I can you can do everything yeah it's the it's like if you're going to have one mountain bike that's the bike yeah
yeah so I loved it so you go to the drawing board and you're like you got to refine this thing you probably have some
thoughts your whole crew has some thoughts you got some feedback over the years like how does this all work yeah
no I'm super excited it's fun to finally talk about this new bike because we've been working on it for many many years
and now since the first one was launched just about little little bit afterwards
but but just about so uh it's funny for the last two years probably the number
one question we get as a company and I get personally is when are you coming
out with the new Rascal people have been have been excited for this bike for a while we've had a lot of people asking about it and we have to
like we talked about earlier we're not quite NASA we don't keep things that secret but this one we were like no we got to keep secret till it's actually
ready cuz like we want we want to make this kind of a big deal it's a it's a it's like you said the bike that put us
on the map and now we're it's it's a whole it's a whole redo it's like a it's like a groundup new bike which is super
exciting um so we are launching that and it's ready to go and we have bikes in
the building at some retailers worldwide and uh it's what a strategy has that
ever happened in the bike industry that you're aware of a bike launch an announcement and it's available to buy I
imagine that over the last few years that hasn't hasn't happened too much it's not an easy thing to execute so it
really isn't and I can geek out on all the you know nerdy business stuff that we had to do to actually make that
happen but it was a really impressive lift by our whole team to launch this bike with bikes in stock and in stock
and other places for people to see and test ride and buy and I'm uh really proud of our whole team at Rebel bikes
for making it happen we made really cool bike but then we also made it happen to make it real so people can actually go
buy it so I'm pretty excited about that yeah that's sweet yeah well let's go over some changes all right um now
offered an XXL we decided that we should make a very large bike for very tall people so
we've never had a double XL before um but we have a lot of tall people riding our bikes and we figured let's make a
bike in that size so we say it fits people up to about 6'8 but you know everybody has different arm length and
leg length and all that stuff but we now have a whole one size bigger yeah that's
the reach on the XXL is 528 mm big dog it's big it's a big dog when
we've got the first prototype in our building we do have I think three people build say you have one I know one for a
fact in your Warehouse that's about 66 maybe yep yep we have three very tall people in the building and so it's kind
of an ongoing joke of well we need to make bikes for them because they work here at Rebel so that was kind of the
you know we didn't do like a big fancy market analysis and figure out how many bikes we thought we could sell in different sizes we just said well
there's some guys that work here that want to ride a big bike and so you know let's let's make one um but when that
first prototype showed up it's the front triangle is like it's gigantic like all of us in the building were looking at it like no way no way this is like real
like we measured everything I measured the head team to make sure it was the right numbers it was it's just a really big bike it won't fit me but you know we
have it for other people yeah that's cool I mean I think there would be if if more bikes just historically were always
offered in double XXL I think there'd just be a lot more taller riders that like would gravitate towards the sport
find a bike that fits them and ride it and enjoy the sport but have kind of just been like no there's just kind of
at a l well there's there's a lack of options out there so if you're over 6'4 most it's you know I go to so many
events and demo events where people ride bikes and you see people riding like tall people riding bikes and most of
them don't fit very well so it's uh it's kind of doing a disservice to people that height so we tried to make one with
and it has a little different seat angle and a couple different measurements on there to make it you it's not just a bigger bike we tried to get the right
front center positioning and body weight over the front of the bike the right way so ideally it should work um a whole lot
better for taller Riders and hopefully hopefully people like it perfect segue because the next change that I was going
to mention here is the effective and actual seat tube angle is steeper across
all the like from V1 to V2 and then there's also size specific C tube angles
I.E the XL and the double XL yes so I listen to what the internet is trolling
about regarding C2 Bal I I've seen a few comments on the internet B I've heard
that feedback once or twice um one of the so the the first rasal was I mean that bike totally put us on the map we
we launched with the Rascal and the rail and the Rascal just took off I mean you guys have owned several you've sold a
whole lot of them uh that bike we it won a bunch of awards we got like articles in all these different countries and it
won with one like outside magazine best bike of the year that one was you know really put us on the map Things took off
a lot after that um I mean we were growing faster than I ever expected because that bike was so so good it was
really good and I was like you know I didn't know what to expect when I launched a bike company but you know I thought the bikes were good but like
never in my wildest dreams would I expect people to to like the bikes as much as they did so um but early on when
we were riding that Rascal that was you know one thing that that that we thought we wanted the SE Tu bangle to be a
little bit steeper and then of course we heard lots of wonderful feedback too about that same thing so we uh when we
did the redesign for the new Rascal that was like a no-brainer of course we're making the seat tube steeper and then
lots of other little things that happened because of that but we knew we wanted the rider position to be a little bit further forward on the bike a little
bit more over the front wheel made the bike a little bit longer uh to accommodate for that steeper seat
angle so the effect of seat angle 76° on most sizes it goes up to 70 76 and2 and
then 77 on the XL and double XL and I feel like that's a really really good number like we like to say our bikes
have you know modern Geo but not too modern a lot of bikes I think have a little too steep a seat Ang modern Geo
but not trying too hard yeah like practically modern and if you're actually seated pedaling like for a long
distance like a a true seated ride cross country ride I should say or trail ride
having like that 78 79° seat tube angle actually isn't like comfortable or good
for your your totally leg Dynamic so it feels kind of weird on your knees sometimes cuz you're so over the front
of the bike you're almost pushing backwards on the pedals and for me I don't like the crazy steep seat angles
but on the Rascal V1 the seat angle was a little slacker than I would have liked so on the Rascal V2 I think we I think
we nailed it a big a big difference is not just that effective seat angle number of 76° but it's the actual seat
angle so I can kind of geek out on the geometry for a second but the on the
first bike the actual seat angle was much more slack almost 5 degre slacker the reason for that is fitting all the
suspension pivot Points and bearings and whatnot it makes it kind of hard to get a nice long seat tube so you can put a
long dropper Post in the bike so we kind of worked some angles and Magic there to
make that actual seat angle much steeper and what that does is as your seat comes
further out of the bike so taller rouers with a taller seat height your effective seat angle really becomes a lot further
back so the the and every bike brand measures seed angles a little bit differently so it makes it very
difficult to compare apples to apples based on du Brand's measure on a horizontal line from the top of the head
tube or do they measure at some point 100 millimet above that because that's where your seat might be so every Brand's a little bit different but as
you get the actual seat angle and the effective seat angle more close together your real life seat position kind of
where your butt is on the bike stays more consistent even at different sea Heights so that was a big thing we did
so especially if you're a taller Rider if you have a little taller seat height this bike is going to feel a whole lot
I'd say better your body's going to be in a lot better position uh Balan on the bike because of that actual verse
effective seat angle H that's cool sounds like you thought this through
quite a bit I hope so we had you know it's funny in our in
our office we have uh we're we're based in a little mountain town called called Carbondale um everybody in our office is
a very passionate bike person and we have all we always have meetings about you know this or that or whatever by far
the most passionate intense argumentative meetings at our office are
about bike geometry like we'll like argue about a half a degree on a seat angle or head angle like for hours and
hours sometimes it gets a little heated yeah but hopefully it means we make a good to your point on how every brand measures differently I've seen a few
Brands actually put different saddle Heights on the geochart with a an
effective c angle Bas on that sell height I thought that was a cool idea I think it's an awesome Trend that I think
actually Uno did that on their original bikes when they only offered one size nice yeah I think more more brands
are catching on or I mean catching on people have known this for a while but I think more brands are starting to talk about it more and show actual geometry
numbers because you can look at a geochart and one brand says 76° angle and another says 76 but it's measured
you know a few inches different you're you're talking about a couple degrees difference at the end of the day so I
think it's I think it's great that companies are doing that yep yeah and we were kind of talking pre-recording here
about Geo charts getting taken a little too seriously in the industry amongst the average Rider um yeah which is good
and bad it's it's cool on one hand because the sport is filled with enthusiasts who like to geek out on things and look at every little detail
and that's awesome but it is also important to remember uh a you're not a paid professional athlete um and B it
there's just a lot of sort of intangible things you don't really know like you got to ride the thing you got to see how it sits in Sag how it pedals like how it
actually feels when you're on the thing and then play with different stem and handlebar length and width so I don't know a lot of variables and the
professional athletes are probably less particular about overall Geo and they just like are like I want this wheelbase
this short you know or whatever they just really fast yeah but to that point I think a lot of people like to fixate
on like one or two points on a Geo chart whatever they think right like a lot of it's just like head to bangle and reach
yeah or whatever's on Trend or whatever's on Trend talking about CH St length then it's all about reach and it's all about
fixate on that without looking at like the bike's a dynamic moving machine yeah H all it's a whole puzzle that comes
together and it's like one angle might change you know your head tube angle but
it's going to make throw everything else off so totally agree it's it's kind of wild you know and and I mean even in our
off we all naturally talk about we talk about head angle and we talk about seat angle is these two like magic numbers on
the bike but really your head angle is not what matters at all it's your it's your Trail number so it's a combination of your fork length and your fork offset
and your wheel size and your tire size and realistically your tire pressure because you can measure the bike leaning
against the wall with 30 PSI in it but if you go ride the bike and you all of a sudden have a full you know full Rider
weight on it your tires compress a little bit and that affects your action ual Trail number and then your suspension Fork if that's if you have it
set up perfectly that's one thing if you have you know say you didn't check your air pressure for a few months and you have a little bit less pressure in there
that affects your Trail number and hi the front end of your bike handle so there's a lot of these all sorts of little tiny nuances that go into it and
for me that's like a really fun part of like my job and what I get to do every day is like figuring out those little things and like well if we have a bottom
bracket drop of 11 mm and a chain St length of 436 those two numbers are are very interrelated you can kind of
achieve what you want by adjusting either one of those numbers but a lot of
people look at just one number and not and not kind of the combination of it all so I think it's kind of fun to figure out those are that is the
literally the exact level of thoughtfulness and attention to detail that has allowed you guys to make
worldclass bikes rather than just average bikes that's good to hear in my opinion so all those arguments we get in
at our office about geometry are are you know they pay off at the end of the day they pay off at the end of the yep
speaking of attention to detail before we talked about the rest of the specs here refill refill intermission nice and
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that's trail 1. bike and the code is MTB podcast 25 and one more quick thing
before I go we are currently hiring for several positions at our expanding shop and warehouse located just north of Reno
Nevada if you or anyone you know might be interested please let them know and please feel free to reach out we would
love to have new cool people join our team thank you and back to the show and now back to the show and we are back
from our intermission because everyone needs an intermission after 30 minutes it's a long time everyone everyone needs
an inter do to work every day every 30 minutes yeah every 30 minutes take a break go get more coffee time to talk
about head tubes and angles of them 0.5 de slacker .5 degre slacker is the bike
is the bike still specked with a 140 Fork it is it's still 130 rear 140 front
U but we made the head to bangle a little bit slacker not too much slacker but I think it's I think it's spot on 65
12° feels great good for everything mhm it's awesome and then you does say you can
like you guys prove it to bump up to 150 if you want correct which would make it 4.5 slacker than that yeah just under 6
forish or so if you do a 150 Fork which is actually a pretty common thing to do on the rasco a lot of people and and at
Revel run a 150 Fork on on their bike I prefer the 140 but you can do 150 if you
want to each own yep to each the own yep I just thought what so when I had a
rasal uh for the longest time and I didn't have an Enduro bike I was like that kind of is my Enduro bike so I
built it kind of beefy good size tires Fork it was like well now this kind of is my traill bike and my Enduro bike and
that's what's cool about the Rascal's like you know if you're going to choose one bike the Rascal's phenomenal and
then if you want to make it a little bit more Enduro bike park kind of kind ofes you can do that 150 fork and it makes it
awesome Yep and then I think you mentioned this briefly earlier but reach is 7 millimet longer across all sizes
yep yeah about 7 mm longer just a little bit longer again we wanted to do you know modern geometry but not not just
what you read in comment sections and not just longer and lower and slacker and all those good things it was really well well thought out I think so 7 mm
longer especially with that steeper seat angle it really keeps your body position quite similar which is something that
people really liked about the original Rascal so your body position is very similar just a little further over the
front of the bike um which I think helps make it feel a little faster and more aggressive and more more well balanced
yeah that makes sense yeah it is it is funny because you look at all these different bikes and even all the bikes just in your guys's own lineup there's
like subtle differences between Every Little Bit Of Travel range you go through and can't make one too much like
the other in either direction cuz they all have to have their like own unique feel and identity a little bit it's kind
of amazing what a couple millimeters and a half a degree does to a bike even on paper you look at it you do all the
numbers and from you know engineering drawings and especially on the kinematic side of things these little tiny you
know and you can you can try to guess what that will mean on paper and then you go ride it and these tiny differences some sometimes really show
themselves a lot so yeah this is a relatively small change on reach on the new Rascal but it feels great people
seem to really like it super happy with it nice and then of course udh rear
triangle mean have to yeah at this point yeah udh for sure just just makes sense you know it was a good question that
someone asked me the other day is why did the original Rascal not have udh cuz UD kind I mean it was it was too
young it was too young I guess but I mean it udh existed but not really that many people we were just before it so we
were a little bit too young um we we we just missed the window on it really so
well I mean it took a while for get to get for it to get adopted first Ranger missed the window yes it did but we were
really close on the yeah like you probably knew about it being a bike company and friends with swam but like
it wasn't allowed to be speced yet yep yeah and then ra 29 got it correct on V1
and the Rover our gravel bike was actually the I believe is the first ever gravel bike with a udh on there or if it
wasn't quite the first it was very close to it but we sort of learned from that one and maybe first production yeah cuz
I'm sure a lot of them you know came out around the same time some handmade ones might have done it or something yep for sure no udh is phenomenal Shram did a
great job with that and it's on um just about all of our bikes right now yeah
it's awesome yeah makes a big difference that's good yeah I think it's kind of a nice thing to have for sure very
convenient making things more standardized across all bikes I think is awesome for little things like that that
just make sense if you need to go into a bike shop to get a new derer hanger you can get one anywhere yeah even when I do
like Back Country rides I just throw one in my pack it's usually not for me it's always for someone else mhm so I'll have
to go on more bike rides with you that and a spare AIS battery that I think I've only used once myself and probably
10 times for some else yep yeah yep I have definitely ridden with a with a
dead access battery more times than I should have [Laughter] admit it's classic uh next change is the
fully revised pivot hardware and bearing design yeah we did several other kind of
maybe small maybe big changes on the Rascal depending on how you look at it but the the bearings and bolts and
Hardware is a is a massive massive Improvement so when you just look at the bike you're not going to be able to notice a whole lot different from that
standpoint but we actually went from a total of 18 bearings in the frame to 10 bearings so they're a whole lot bigger
bearings much much beefier stronger longer lasting we did like a crazy amount of bearing testing and the bolo
bearings we use are awesome and incredible and they last a really long time longer than than anything else um
and all the axles are bigger as well uh they also use we designed a one tool
system so if you do have to tighten a bolt on the side of the trail which hopefully you never do but just in case
you only need uh one tool to do that and then we use titanium for all the shock
mounting hardware red lighter it's a whole lot stronger you can get the right torque with a lighter bolt but then the
front shock mount is like we did this really cool like captured nut system so you only need one one bolt to tighten it
on and I think it looks pretty cool so super happy with with how all that turned out nice touch yeah and it made
the whole frame 150 gram lighter a lot of that was so the frame is 150 g ligh
it's kind of a lot isn't it every G counts 50 reasons for Jeff to
buy one counts 150 reasons for Jeff uh so it's funny because the bolts and the
hardware is actually a lot bigger there's a few less bearings but they're larger bearings so a lot of the weight
savings um and a really important part of that is the bike's a whole lot stiffer too we did a whole new carbon
layup so um it's actually a it's a really massively noticeable difference you can feel right out of the gate
riding the bike so lighter and stiffer and stronger and better lighter stiffer stronger Jee 150 gram slider that's what
I'm talking about 150 grams that's a lot yeah that's a that's a real weight
savings and it's about 20% stiffer which we have like really techy lab tests
they're it's called a a zidler test for frame stiffness so you measure the the head tube stiffness the bottom bracket
stiffness and the rear triangle stiffness and it's a good way to get quantifiable tangible numbers on frame
stiffness but then what we do is we go we do different layup like different iterations of the bikes and we do blind
testing with people and we have actually a really like kind of in-depth ride testing for CU everyone says oh yeah I
want to go test the new bike people go out and try it out but what we do is everyone has to fill out their ride feedback before a ride and after the
ride and we do this thing where you kind of take uh people's expected ride quality differences and then their
actual ride feedback and everything's rated on a scale of 1 to 10 so it's kind of a way to get
quantifiable feedback on qualitative things if that sort of makes sense so do
people think it's going to be stiffer and then is it actually a stiffer ride so much more scientific than I would
have anticipated surprisingly scientific we're kind of a bunch of bunch of bike Geeks but we get pretty sciencey about
bunch of mountain hippies yeah bunch of mountain hippies that know how to make real good bike we like going to the
rodeo and making bikes and more Tire clearance more Tire
clearance of course that was definitely something we wanted to uh improve on that bike and it's got tons of room for
two six tires two six tires I don't really remember having a tire clearance issue other than occasionally it would
Buzz the inside of the chains stay I was going to say like rail 29
24 will buzz you could probably squeeze a 25 but I'll definitely buzz on a real 29 so 26 clearance is good for like the
flex of a smaller Tire too yeah and when it's covered in mud yeah more mud more
mud we don't have that but yeah it's good for mud yeah we don't have a whole lot of that either you can't ride the mud but yeah people in different places
do so I mean I I I like riding a 23 or 24 on that bike personally I don't like putting on a 25 or 26 tire but it's nice
to at least have the room and have the mud clearance just in case yeah that is that's cool oh I forgot to mention about
the uh the pivot bearings can you tighten all your pivot bearings without
your chain ring being in the way yes yes because the captured nut is
on that side of the chain ring so you you you access that I think we call that
pivot one um you access pivot one from the non- drive side of the bike so yes
that's actually good news same concept I believe Ranger and rail 29 correct yeah
yeah similar concept if you worked on your Ranger you would know that you can do it from not getting through your
chain ring yeah well I worked on the old one or at some bikes I don't know well the
new one's better so that's all that's all we got toally I do my own bull it's so good you don't have to check that's
right yeah should never have to touch it and that's actually something else that's pretty fun about this bike is
it's fully uh frames are fully assembled at our own Facility by our own employees
in Taiwan so Liam you've seen our Taiwan facility last time we were at the taipe bike show um but we've really built that
out a whole lot more and it's it's kind of little stuff that really most people shouldn't care about or don't care about
but the way we make these bikes and the way we do quality control checking and assemble the bearings and make sure there's the right amount of Loctite and
grease and all that on on everything is something that I'm actually our our our crew has done an incredible job kind of
building up this facility and infrastructure to assemble these bikes and that ideally leads to really great
bikes that people really like to ride and don't have problems with yeah well a lot of people don't realize like a lot of the bikes that get assembled overseas
get assembled in like a third party assembly facility totally which are just going off instructions which often lead to overlock Tiding of certain bolts or
not greasing a headset when they put put it in and so on so totally and it's all those little details that in the last
few years we've just put a ton of effort into into trying to just optimize all those little things and I think it adds up to make a you know a really great
bike yeah yep super excited about that and two new colors couple new build kit
options but I like the new colors we got for this bike ponar and pony boy correct
you can guess those colors Pino Nar Pino Nar as I said I know you you did say it
right but I'm just clarifying for the listen you didn't say that incorrectly cuz they're probably like did he just
mean p and he said ponar Pony Boy a deep purple and a
nice shiny yellow gold gold shimmery yellow with turquoise bluish decals it's
a pretty fun color and the the ponar has like a off-white logo cream that cloud
cloudy logo I think is the call it but yeah one looks really good yeah it's kind of we we always try to do like a
stealthy colored bike and then a loud colorful poppy bike so that's what the two colors are the ponar is quite
stealthy and then depending on the light it's kind of yeah it's kind of it's kind of more glimmery and like I don't know
just vibrant in direct sunlight which is cool but if it's not in direct sunlight it just looks really dark like almost
black yeah yeah we have a lot of fun with paint seems like it's it's like a small detail but I think cool colors is
always kind of fun yeah I agree it just for whatever reason it seems like paint on everything has totally changed in the
last 10 years like say like four years yeah but even cars cars bikes everything
like there's just all these colors that I didn't really even know existed my whole life there was just not that many
colors all there's like all these unique colors kind of gray scale has just like gone from like you know charcoal or
silver and there's that huge like scale between now your car is kind of on that scale Limestone color Limestone yeah
that's what they call it yeah there's been a ton of improvements in the Bike World with paint there's been a lot of innovation and I don't know all the
scientific chemicals and molecules and how they did it but you know several years ago a lot of bikes when you'd
scratch your paint you'd get like a big chip like it was pretty common to have paints you know really chip off the bike and take a big chunk
out yeah and that's actually like in the last few years like gotten really a whole lot better from from a lot of the
you know high quality factories with with good paint quality control and the temperatures that the paint gets Bak on
at and the outside air temperature and how it cools like it's there's a real science to all of that but at least
overall it's gotten a whole lot better which I think is pretty sweet yeah yeah that is cool nice and a couple other
quick mentions of some new happenings over at Revel before we jump into your listener questions a new tie hard tail
Yeah we actually have like a kind of a lot of product launches here in the next few weeks which is pretty exciting so
coming into the season man you got to do it now it's bike season time for time for new bikes finally yeah um yeah we
have a new titanium hard tail so we make titanium bikes because a lot of us just I I love titanium bikes the first bike I
ever worked on when I was hired at a bike shop when I was 14 years old was a custom titanium 7 and ever since then
I've just always thought titanium is like this awesome material so um we have
a shreddy all Mountain titanium hard tail coming out it's called the tirade
it's actually really very similar to the Rascal in terms of geometry and intended use um but it's a titanium heart tail
not a carbon full suspension bike so people love hard tails man this one's fun yeah there's something about it it's
like a really simple bike like you don't have a rear shocker it's just very simple I agree with that but you can do
so much with it and and I I think titanium for hard tail like I think there's no better material like maybe if
you're you know racing World Cup cross country or something like that but you know it's a little heavier they don't
even use hard Tails anymore so if you want a hard tail titanium yeah I agree with that I think Tai's an awesome
material for a rigid bike yeah it's comfortable lasts forever I can't wait to put it to the test because my new
bike which I haven't built or even started the process of L Hefe yes with a
rigid Fork yes oh I'm excited for that a rigid Fork L Hefe mhm that's going to be
cool that's what I was thinking so like a mountain bike gravel bike like I'm going to build it super light so it'll
be gravel bike esque but obviously still just a rigid mountain bike but this one I can just call rigid Mountain bike is
it's like nothing to it is a mountain bike actually just an actual grael sort of events Adventure
things do anything with it it's want a bike I can do anything with that's fast it's got tons of mounts so you could
join Jared on his eventual bike packing trip I heard Jared loves to go bike
packing he has a lot of gear for it well that's step one longtime listener first
time caller actually never called it's it's gotten to the point where it used to be
like kind of funny and we're like he you never really going on those bike backing trips you were telling us about and then it's like gone longer and longer to
where he's like a little bitter about it now so now he's just never going to go and now now now we're throwing him on
under the bus and he's not here to defend himself so we'll move on that's what you
get yep new tie bike super excited about it it's it's gonna be fun one yeah can't wait for you try it out least but not
last little little small update to the rail 29 coming into the season some what is it fresh colors fresh build kit yeah
we have new colors new new new specs it's actually I'm I'm pretty excited about it so the rail 29 when we launched
it we launched it with a60 mm Fork 155 rear 160 front and then I was looking
around our our um at at our Revel office and pretty much everybody who had a rail
29 had put a 170 Fork on it including myself I I prefer the bike with a 170 fork and after seeing all of us that
work at Revel do that I figured well we should probably just make that the stock spec and put a 170 Fork on it cuz we
just it I just think it rides a whole lot better it slacks the bike out a little bit um it makes it feel a little
bit more aggressive like you can charge a little bit harder uh and and and that
bike climbs like an absolute Beast it's a super efficient climbing bike so um it's really just you know after a year
of having that bike out there we realized 17 Forks were the way to go on that bike so the new bike we have a couple new colors and longer Fork couple
different build kit options some like that so um sweet it's pretty sweet yeah did you put a 170 on yours no not 160 on
yours yeah well cuz I kind of use it as a long-legged trail bike yeah a lot I
pedal it a lot I run a lyric um and lyric only goes up to 160 um and that's
kind of how I've been riding and I like it however I do have plans for summer to throw on a like 170 Zeb or 38 yeah with
some downhill casings and that'll be Bike Park season last a different Fork the Ze compared to the lyric is a lot
beefier yeah and I personally think a lyric at 150 or 160 is good and then a
Zeb at 170 or 180 some people drop a Zeb down to 160 and I just think it might be
a little too much for that travel range I agree so I agree and last year I had a full downhill bike so I didn't really
need to dual action this bike but did you sell that downhill bike I did yeah thing looks so SI I know I was really
bummed on it but when you ride it five times in a year and y you have to build a new van
you know yeah downhill bikes and can sometimes be like that first one to go
you know got to make sacrif got simplify y all right some rapid fire questions
which came from your guys's audience on your Instagram what is the thought process on Geometry and what goes into
picking different Geo for different travel bikes this is this one I could probably talk for like hours and hours
now I was say we kind of got close to this already so yeah I think I think like the quick the the quick answer to
that is um in my mind GE geometry has two things one is like your body
position on the bike like is your body comfortable and do you feel like you're in a a good powerful position and then the second part is how the bike actually
handles can you go around a corner while you feel comfortable so kind of combining those two things and making sure your body is comfortable on the
bike but the bike can also handle well and go over rocks and corners and stuff well and then when you add suspension
into that you have kind of this whole third thing that you have to take into account so when the back wheels moving up and down
you know 115 to 200 mm that affects your geometry like very significantly um how
your axle you know how the axle path moves does the rear wheel move a little bit forward does it move backwards first
that's going to affect how you hop up and over terrain like bumpy rocks on a on a climb and so I think kind of
putting you know body positioning bike handling and suspension kinematics together is kind of the the art that
we're all trying to optimize yeah again I think thing comes down a whole package
totally yeah yeah yeah you can have a a bike with a perfectly perfect head angle and Trail but if the if the you know
rear center the bottom racket drop isn't right then it throws the whole thing off so making sure you really combine all of
those along with your suspension characteristics uh there's a lot of there's a lot of inputs to make a bike
ride well so I always say people should just ride every bike they can before they decide to buy one if you ride it
yeah that is super helpful we say that too I've always been an advocate just trying bikes try all out yeah cuz you
could you could sit there and send off a 100 emails and phone calls of how does this bike ride or how does this happen and read all these different things it's
like you just need to go ride some different bikes try go to bike demos go to bike events go to bike shops just
ride Different Bikes figure out what you like and what feels good for go to Sedona bike fest that is the first week
of March second week of March we will have all of our new bikes the Rascal new rail 29 all that good stuff there or all
the outer bike events sea otter everything sweet yeah good spots go ride bikes good call yeah any plans for a
mullet bike in the future or MX wheel oh yeah mixed wheel
the industry's kind of going to wheel yeah I like the word mullet but way more
fun um that's a fun question so a long time ago and I worked in a bike shop I
forget it was somebody from like a really big brand I don't know if it was Santa Cruz or Specialized or track but
they they came to our bike shop and this is like a product manager a big company and they said oh you know what yeah
we're never going to make 29in bikes because those wheels are too big and that's just a fed and then a year later
I forget what company it was but a year later they had you know of course the brand had had those bikes so I will admit that a few years ago I had strong
feelings against mullet bikes but I tried to keep that in mind and stay open-minded and um I actually think
there's a great use case for mullet bikes I think there's a lot of places where it makes a lot of sense um but I
think the bike needs to be designed for it I think taking an existing bike and putting a longer Fork on or taking a 29er bike and putting a smaller wheel on
it just you're you're sacrificing a lot of things bikes were designed a certain way for a reason so um I think mullet
bikes are actually pretty pretty darn cool yeah I agree I think it needs to be designed for that how about that
answeres are pretty darn cool but it doesn't answer yes or no was that is that a vague enough answer for you D
yeah yeah you should run for Congress next yep yep I'm now all right on to the
next perfect I dodged it uh will the rodeo be released oh man meaning will it
be available to be purchased I'm assuming is what they mean so the rodeo downhill bike which you don't have to go
into a ton of detail because if anyone's curious they can look back at episode 108 of this podcast which is the last
time you were on and you talked all about that bike when you guys announced the bike um yeah give a quick overview
and then answer the will it ever be released the rodeo super fun bike it was the first ever 3D printed carbon made in
America mountain bike so we worked with this really cool Factory with some crazy technology to make this um composite
thermoplastic full suspension mountain bike super fun project we learned a crazy amount it was kind of the first of
first of its kind in in in many different ways um this might be another slightly
politician answer here so uh myself and everybody else at Rebel
would love to have a downhill bike in the lineup so it is definitely no question that a CBF carbon downhill bike
is something we all want and will have at some point don't know when something we're working
on in eventually hopefully maybe anything and everything could happen in
the future the bike's pretty sick though someday yeah it does look rad I mean
yeah if if you just want to Google that you can and our our uh podcast article which you on has a bunch of photos of it
and stuff too so anyone's curious about that go listen to episode 108 also linked in the show
notes what's the story behind the names of your bikes huh n names are names are
funny I'd be curious to hear what you guys do it's always surprisingly difficult to come up with names and so I
keep like we keep a few like ongoing lists when someone thinks of a good you know word or name we we write it down we
do actually some really fun naming competition at Rebel so especially for colors we try to have some fun with the
color names so we put like you know a big sheet out there and for a week everybody in the company writes down
ideas and then people vote on them and whoever wins gets you know like a gift card for pizza or sixpack of beer or
something like that so we kind of crowdsource from the company to come up with with names which that's always the most fun yeah and then get some good
good opinions in in the building as well so so far all your carbon bikes start with
ours and you might run out of [Laughter]
RW you know that's a been a topic of conversation in our very serious product meetings is what are we going to do when
we run out of our wordss I don't know if anybody has any ideas for names let me know but I I like
you know the the RW thing actually kind of started just on accident the first the first bike I was riding with a buddy it was the the rail was the first
prototype we had and at the time the bike didn't have a name and he was right in front of me and we traded bikes he
got on this the first prototype ever we're 10t into the ride we went around this big corner and he goes dude this bike
rails and I was like dude we should probably name it the rail then huh he's like yeah and we named it the rails
that's where that one came from wasn't very scientific what what what do you guys do how do you come up with names for ah it's a just a mish mash of the
same thing keep keeping a list of all that stuff but uh the most recent one we
uh we just did a YouTube Community poll we just like posted a poll on on YouTube and said what should we name the next
pair of kettle mountain bike shorts and and uh and and we said whoever comes up with a good name will'll give you a free
pair and some guy just said skidmark shorts and we're like oh genius it's great name great name absolutely genius
quick Google check like yeah no checks out let's do it and then I think we replied to his comment months and months
later like hey we picked your name we'll give you pair of shorts I don't know I don't know if he ever I'm not sure if we
ever got us pair of shorts but if you're if you're the guy who commented that wants their shorts and we didn't already send them please let me know but crowd
source via the Internet y yeah pretty good I thought this next question was
pretty cool which is when will there be udh on all bikes that is a really cool question um like not obviously not just
yourand I kind of read that as all Revel bikes but yeah all bikes I'm more Curious to hear your answer like all bikes in general like every bike that
should have a derailer when will they all have udh like do you predict every brand in the entire industry that like
any in the bicycle industry at all is going to one hold out
I I mean I'm AIT I'm a Shram fan we we work with Shram a lot I know you guys like Shram too they're phenomenal I
think the udh is like the single greatest simple invention of the bike world it's so simple it's a tiny little
well if you ever worked at a bike shop 10 years ago and you had to look at a Wheels manufacturing catalog to match
this up and then it didn't match perfectly so you put a file you get you get a piece of sandpaper in a file and
you can make anything work as a drill your hanger it's not good to take a file out for people's $112,000 bikes we would
always like run behind the shop when we had to use f people wouldn't see it but it's one of my favorite things but yeah
it's kind of fun no I I think udhs will be on all bikes and and I would assume for most bike companies that are making
products on a regular basis that should be quite quite soon there's really no reason not to have it and there's every
reason to have it on a bike so it just makes sense I bet we'll see that all in the next year you think every brand will
do it eventually I think so do you think it was uh on a similar note but in terms of
just standards what about what about super boost also known as stupid boost it was a thing and then some
Brands did it and then other brands were like ah we're not doing that and then there's like now these two or three
awkward brands are like well we did it right and we're still doing it we don't know why that's how we're all in good
company this is good to hear yeah I'm not I'm not a fan you think that's just going to disappear I'm not a fan so the
the different chain lines that Shram did really kind of make it so so I can't see any practical reason that some people
will say that because you have a wider uh you know wider bracing angle you can get a stiffer wheel or you can get a stiffer frame but like you you really
don't need to it's pretty easy to get the right amount of stiffness out of a framer wheel with standard 148 boost
spacing but that 55 chainline SHRM crank instead of a 52 chainline SHRM crank
gives you the tire clearance tire and chain ring clearance because the hardest part on a bike to design from just a
shape standpoint is that area between the chain ring and the tire and so now that Shram has the 55 chain line cranks
and that works well T type and all that stuff it like we just got three millimet of free space and Life's good so no Reon
in my mind no reason to do super boost on a bike anymore yeah and I think it's just basically makes up the whole
one-sided that super boost does yes exactly yeah it works it works super
good wow so yep standard boost all day I'm just thinking about the going price
for super boost wheels and Frames 10 years from now ah
five years from now are you going to make an investment in super boost frames I'm going to invest in the super boost I actually have a Onyx super boost Hub
that we were going to use for a bike you got with super boost and we never built it so I should probably sell that Hub oh
yeah before it becomes obsolete sweet UB Onyx Hub yeah
those are sweet hubs I would like to build oh maybe I'll put those on the hard too Heavy D they are too heavy
that's why I didn't yeah but they're so quiet and cool going to go downhill bike going to build which would be sick quiet
H downhill bike the bike park yeah that's what I thought so yeah we li
didn't happen we they were lighter I know oh well we can dream more Innovation well anyways we have run into
the limit of time here so Adam thank you for joining us for another episode much appreciated and for everyone listening
uh if you have any other further questions feel free to send them to podcast at worldwide um and
people can find Adam uh Revel bikes Instagram your own Instagram what's your Instagram yeah adam. Miller 907 I think
that's it yeah that's it is that Alaska area yeah that's the Alaska area code I I grew up in Alaska and I I'm just
holding it with me yeah love that place we got to go ride bikes someday I would love to one of these days sick let's do
it that would be a pleas that would be actually really epic all right bike pack or just like ride bikes well Jared's
going to want a bike pack so oh man we'll do it all we'll do it
all well if you've made it this far thank you very much we genuinely appreciate it uh if you want to help us
out if you hit Spotify or apple podcast and drop a review it's very welcome and if you screenshot the review and email
it to us Jared will give you a surprise can't tell you what it is cuz I can't remember off top of my head right
now but it's a gift card of some sorts of some value that will be useful uh yeah that's it that's all thank you for
listening talk to you guys next time love you [Music]

February 29, 2024

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