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Drivetrain Model Differences, Everything Handlebars, How To Start A Local MTB Race...MTB Podcast 83 [Podcast]
Overview
On today's MTB Podcast Jeff, Jared, and Liam discuss their current favorite rides and then dive right into a comparison between the SRAM and Shimano drivetrains which includes the cassettes, derailleurs, and how the shifters feel while riding. We then segway into our favorite MTB handlebars, talking about the finer details of the bend, sweep, rise, and stiffness of each. Next up is Commecal’s Care Program which helps their existing customers with any potential build, setup, or potential warranty issues. Jared also gets on a video call with Micah Rice, the Executive Director of the Pikes Peak APEX Mountain Bike Challenge to discuss the race as well as how to set up a race in your local area. We then close it out with some listener questions. Enjoy!
00:00 Intro
01:25 Favorite Rides
06:32 Drivetrain Comparison
19:30 Handlebar Comparison
29:17 Commencal Care Program
38:03 Video Call with Micah Rice Executive Director of the Pikes Peak APEX
47:14 Listener Questions
Worldwide Cyclery YouTube Channel
Submit any and all questions to podcast@worlwidecyclery.com-
SRAM Eagle Drivetrain Comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=9JmU5r5T_WU&t=12s&ab_ channel=WorldwideCyclery -
Shimano Drivetrain Comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=5uUqYofiYVc&t=493s&ab_ channel= WorldwideCycleryWorldwideCycle ry -
Mountain Bike Handlebar Buyer’s Guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=JGWBvQVgFpY&t=4s - Pikes Peak APEX Mountain Bike Challenge: https://www.pikespeakapex.com/
Submit any and all questions to podcast@worldwidecyclery.com
If you are one strange human that would like to read a transcript of the podcast above, continue reading below!
thank you for tuning in to episode 83 of the mtb podcast presented and hosted by worldwide
cyclery i am jeff i'm liam i'm jared i like cookies uh
in this episode of the podcast we're going to give a quick take on our favorite recent mountain bike rides
uh we're gonna go into drivetrain tier comparisons what the heck is the difference between slx xt xtr etc uh handlebars materials
rise sweep width common sol's care program we're actually going to hear from a guest mike rice who is the one of the race
organizers of the pikes peak apex race what else does he do he helps organize other races in the
colorado springs area yeah he knows a lot about cool cool we're gonna hear from him on
the current state of mountain bike racing given the pandemic and actually some quick tips from him on how to start a mountain bike race or
event yourself if you're so interested in something like that and we're gonna answer some listener questions around uh
mixing drivetrain brand components and also preferred geometry for former bmx riders that's a lot of stuff
oh let's do it all right let's get into this we're getting into this dj pineapple play a sound effect
Favorite Rides
all right favorite rides wow favorite rides liam what's your most
recent favorite ride most recently i've been getting on the curly bar bike which
is gravel bike whatever i mean yeah gravel bike drop drop bar handlebars um all road
bike whatever you want to call it really um i just call it a curly bar bike is for going longer distance
a couple buddies some shop friends we did we want to do a santa barbara
front country and back country ride where we started on the front country climbed up and over the mountain
descended the backside traversed the back country and then went back up and over to the front side where
we started we pretty much ended up doing 55 miles with 8 000 feet of climbing
on gravel bikes most of it was on like mountain bike trails and yeah it's pretty brutal um i haven't
gone that deep in a while the descending i've really found out that descending on drop bars and dirt is not my preferred
method of descending yeah that's tough gravel bike you can do these longer rides but then you also want to ride single track and then
your just head is rattling around well yeah we weren't on single track descending um
because yeah and that's where i draw the line but it was still like a pretty rough fire road oh yeah so and like your back hurts in
ways your back is never hurt before you probably hold body like you get off and you're just like
but yeah uh hit night k if climbing is uh i haven't done that in probably over a year so
in one ride was pretty heavy i'm tired just thinking about it feels good i like i like doing that wow
yeah what about you jeff you riding bikes yeah my recent most memorable one so i'm
currently training for this multi-sport adventure race where you do a bunch of mountain biking kayaking and
trail running so i put in a 50 mile ride back to back with a 20 mile trail run
the 50 miles i did on what i call gravel bike which doesn't have curly bars it's got flat bars
because i could just not ever ride curly bars so i did 50 miles on that bike that was just over 4 000
feet of climbing in that 50 miles and then i went straight into a 20 mile trail run which also had
uh just over four thousand feet of elevation and yeah it took me 11 hours and 19
minutes it was a long one time removing time uh that's moving time wow cool
it was a total of 71.32 miles that was a good one i've been trying to
just do these like really long ones because i'm realizing that when you go over six hours then it like really
like nutrition is a really big deal like you're just gonna get depleted on electrolytes and all these other various
things and have problems so it was a good like memorable fun one that i did recently which was yeah 50 mile bike ride right into a 20-mile
trail run it's good fun well uh that six hour mark is really where uh you can't rely on like stupidity and
fitness yeah exactly yeah yeah no it takes plan you gotta build that fitness you have to eat properly
um yeah the six hour mark kind of where i call the my limit on a bike after that i'm not
getting paid for this yeah like how do you carry that much like water and food with you or you're stopping and
yeah you can't refilling at certain places yeah i had a uh one of those filters so be free is that company that makes
that filter that you can like fill up and various fresh water sources or a hose or whatever and then just filter the water through so i was doing
that and then i did kind of a like a home base right so i went out from home did the 50 miles back to home
ate some food got some water changed in my drone running kit and then went out into the trail run and then went back but yeah i did have a
little panic attack about running out of water and then happened to find uh one of those little like water spigots down in sycamore
canyon where i was running and i was really grateful for that nice starting to hallucinate a little bit towards the end of that thing and
i mean it started at it started at 9 00 a.m and i didn't get home until like 10 30
because that was like the total time with like the one little small break in the middle so wow yeah i was out all day it was an all day
wow it was fun though what about you yeah you guys are doing a great job and making me look bad so
i've just been cruising around sycamore canyon i really like it right there because i live right next to it so
yeah just been putting loops together in there and yeah for those that don't know is because
there's probably a lot of sycamore canyons i feel like that's probably springfield like every state has one
right um that's that's on the back side of santa monica mountains which is about um 35 to 40 miles northwest of l.a
los angeles yeah it's actually technically point magoo state park as well yeah nice so yeah so yeah good fun so just
been doing loops in there yeah the usu yeah the huge i you know just really like riding in there it's super relaxing
especially you know after work or you know long week and just you know there's not a lot of people that go in there
on the bike trails so when the chill times it's it's a very nice yeah place to go yeah i agree yeah that
is a beautiful place it really is i like it there yeah um sweet well let's jump
right into drivetrain tier comparisons are you ready yeah i'm ready so this is
Drivetrain Comparison
a question that i think we've gotten forever and they're actually we have two videos that are in within both within
the top five of our most viewed youtube videos ever one of them is a uh shimano comparison
the other video is a sram comparison and in each one of those videos uh we dissect what is the difference
between for example shimano right it's dior slx xt xtr um sram
it is sx nx gx x01 xx1 did it miss anything no you got
that correct you got it yeah i'm impressed uh yeah and so those those videos are
accompanied by these very in-depth articles that who who made those did you make most of those liam and i mean yeah i think i've
read a lot of people work on all those articles and comes to the photos and everything but yeah yeah those those videos are accompanied
by these in-depth articles where we just discussed because it is confusing right when you're even relatively new or even intermediate
right like you're just in the sport like you don't really know what the difference is especially when you you're like oh what's the difference and you look at
it's like oh it still has the same amount of gears like what is the difference it's more expensive and it's lighter yeah
well that's right you know it's more expensive that's an obvious one and it has but like a lot of the other specs are the same it's like what are
you getting for your money yeah exactly why are these intricate details what are the main differences yeah yeah i mean i i
think a lot of people know at this point that weight is something that happens when you spend more but
that's also if you think about it in the last few years not so true like people have stopped
caring about weight as much especially with ebikes especially with like just enduro riding in general being more popular in xc not
like leading the pack in terms of popularity you don't care about weight as much people not including you okay
i i i am a bit of a weight weenie that is true i have two bikes one i care about weight on and one i don't exactly right um
it it is still generally true the higher the drive train level the lighter it is yep but there's also a
point i think kinda around the xt or the xo mark for sram or shimano
that you start losing durability as you get nicer and then durability loss comes into
like weight loss yeah so the highest end might not necessarily be the most durable but it's the lightest
so then there's that line of what type of writing you're doing well i think i mean so sram likes to say that their
x01 is geared towards trail and enduro correct xx1 is geared towards cross-country yes right so like
one is lighter x1 is lighter and it's really not much more expensive it's like barely more well often times the same depending on the
part you're talking about that's kind of they they put them as the same level if you look on a graph they're the same level
but ones yeah like you said for enduro trail and the other ones for xc light trail yeah
like in terms of shifting performance they're going to be pretty similar like almost exactly correct yeah well yeah so so that is the
other thing right because the people have a lot of questions here right that we don't because we're just we've been living in this world for too
long but people wonder things like well does gx not shift as good as xx1 not at all like i mean i stuff has been
shifting if it's properly adjusted i mean i had a shimano olivio eight speed three three by eight drivetrain on
my one of my first mountain bikes 15 years ago and it shifted flawlessly like it was great you know
and like all this stuff shifts good it doesn't matter what tier you're at now it all shifts flawlessly granted it's
adjusted correctly weight of course yeah you're going to get some lighter stuff but then peop then you can ask the
question it's like well what's why is it lighter you know and then it comes to materials
and that also plays into like how it feels right so like and how it sounds and the construction of the cassette and
the materials that are the cassettes made out of and even like the shifter lever and the cranks like that stuff that
feels different like and you know i think people do you think people notice that when they hop on that i think so yeah yeah and how it feels
totally it's definitely prominent on going from like a gx or nx shifter to an xo or xx one
shift or first frame yeah it's like a tactile difference of like the flex and lever blade yep and then shifter i
think same is true for shimano uh xtr i believe xt gets some some rubber pads on your shifters
yeah they feel a little nicer and then dr and slx kind of a little bit more plastic and
and stuff so yeah there's there's a feel differences there but they all shift very well yeah oh yeah yeah i mean
that's not even a topic in this like they all shift perfect as long as they're adjusted accordingly yeah and weight is a thing
tactile feel so like fit and finish you could say um we actually in that sram video i did
like a blindfold test which is kind of funny to do and can't really be perfect right that's
what i wonder i wonder if we could get you know 100 people so we had a bigger data set and everyone was blindfolded and they hopped on
and rode the same bike but with a different drivetrain in a straight line and just shifted i i think people could tell like you can
just i mean the sound the chain makes as it like moves from cog and the shifter makes too yeah the sound you're right the
sound the shifter makes yeah like you pretty much i'm if i recall correctly you pretty much nailed them right oh like immediately
i'm all right like you just feel the shifter you know exactly what it is and you have to ride it like you just push on the thumb blade
and yeah yeah you can tell what that is exactly and i think the other thing between all the tiers for both brands
would be durability and i think or or maybe longevity is a better word
yeah yeah i think longevity uh you know you you ride the nx or the gx
level for sram or the same with dior and slx it might start maybe deteriorating performance
after a really good season or two seasons of writing and you might start needing to tweak it more and it might kind of lose
its precise feel where i think those higher end and especially i like
land on xt for this and x01 is the like longevity model like those two
drivetrains last a really long time and like you can move them from bike to bike to bike right
so i think that's something as well that you're paying for is better materials that do actually last longer yeah i think one
of the most common questions i get from people like when they're upgrading or they're you know they have like a nx or gx and they're thinking about
getting like x01 or x1 and they're asking like if i get that cassette chain is it gonna actually last
me longer than my gx or nx well cassette and chain
i think are maybe different on longevity than derailer and shifter right because consent chain are wearable
items no matter what where cassette and shifter or sorry derailleur and shifter
kind of aren't necessarily wearable items right yeah but yeah like would you say if i got x1 chain hypothetically would
it last longer than a gx or an x chain i don't think so i don't know i don't
think so it'll be lighter yeah it'll be lighter right maybe like a slight difference in shifting performance and then i think
cassettes actually uh because gx not positive i believe
it's steel material versus the xo and xx or alloy
so in theory the steel would last longer right an alloy yeah so yeah that that is a tough
question because i don't think any of them are really that significantly different yeah you know like one of them's not going to outlast
the other by like 50 like no maybe 10 maybe i this still seems like a lot like it's
it's just so close it's hard to really say once like it's gonna last longer than the other so many variables to put into cassette and
chain absolutely of what lube you use where you live how often you clean it versus mud however you are totally yeah
you know jared weighs 30 pounds more than jeff and i you know so over time he's gonna wear out that
drivetrain parts faster than jeff and i will true just from his weight and his uh
watts that he's putting out to propel himself true so yeah that's a good point yeah
yeah so those two articles and videos we we actually broke out which was an
extensive amount of time so thank you to everyone here that made these i didn't but they really added a lot to the video um
in in these charts basically layout all of the different group sets uh each individual component and its
price and weight right so you have your price and your cranks cassette trailer shifter chain and the total and you can look at these look at this
big chart and see like oh how much more does nx cost versus x01 how much more does it weigh
you can see all this stuff very like vividly in these charts which are in the articles and the videos and
i it does like it goes back to those things the one thing we haven't talked about right so we've talked a lot about
weight longevity durability um features right features are pretty much the same on all
of these things but not exactly there is some feature differences like for example um
you know x01 and xx1 they have that you can adjust the actual like static position
of the of your thumb lever right you can adjust that whereas you can't do that which i've never adjusted that like the static
position they give you is per i've like never like do you done that i have
actually i think i have but the one i have done it on is like on my dropper lever on the pw loam yeah you can adjust that kind of exactly
static position well so you have it on a shifter though no yeah yeah like that is a feature that i don't
think a lot of people even know they have on their bike and i don't think i don't know i don't know anyone even uses the only time i have was i think
two times ever both for uh female riders that were like five foot with small
hands oh there you go yeah that makes sense and i got their two shifters a little closer so they'd have to reach as far
yeah um yeah that helps yeah that's the only time so there's a use case for it but it's kind of a rare i mean that's
like really the only feature difference between all of this sram stuff yeah all the spam stuff uh pretty much yeah just that
and then um i guess cassettes not really a feature though it's just material and
materials and the nx shifter is not matchmaker oh yeah no there is
there's there's one that is and one that doesn't oh yeah there was like an oe one i thought that they all had the clamp on
him i like those regulars clamp only yeah i believe there's a matchmaker version out there
yeah sometimes yeah it might be sx that has that issue now sometimes you see like the more pricey
stuff has just gotten more like availability too like it's because
it's people are obviously upgrading more to x01 xx1 even gx than they would be to nx you
know and then the shimano shifters also have a feature difference they do yeah so we were talking about that
pre-podcast right it was it's the double downshift right
yes double downshift so it's just a level that's harder yeah exactly on xt and xtr
you can press it basically through the first click into the second with one motion and get
that two two gear downshift or shift two gears harder yeah two gears with one push of the
corrupt right yeah which is actually really cool and it is cool when i use a shimano shifter i'm like that's actually a rad feature where
slx and dior do not have that they have single clicks right yeah yeah for the down not the up
the down yeah the easier gear they all have the same i think it's three or four yeah so yeah that's kind of it on
features though really yeah shimano had a couple little clutch things so like adjustability of the clutch
which is a patent shimano has which is why sram doesn't have that but yeah you can you can adjust the clutch
more easily like a tool-free sort of adjustment um on the pricier stuff on shimano and
it's like more complicated you have to take off like the cover to do it on the less expensive stuff so little little things like it's pretty
negligible i mean realistically all of these drive trains from ceramic shimano at any price tier are going to
shift amazing they're going to be lighter they're going to look fancier and they're going to have a way better
tactile feel and sound as you spend more money and they might have a feature or two
if you're lucky so if you're really considering a drivetrain upgrade and curious on you know all of this stuff
those two articles and videos that we made definitely are our good go-to source for that thing and something we just wanted
to talk about because it was a popular topic and those two videos did super well for us on youtube so clearly
people are interested in this topic and now a word from our sponsors hey this is
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12th we are developing the world's first 14 speed drive train that's going to be absolutely amazing
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hubs check us out now on kickstarter and make sure to tune into shark tank march 12th and now back to the show
Handlebar Comparison
bar handles bar handles handle bars handle handlebars handlebars
yeah let's talk about them what are your mustaches what's going on here
oh for our bikes yeah i'm talking about blindfold uh what bars you running right now liam
oh you can't say can i talk about them some top secret bars we can't tell you
about yet but they're both carbon they both have a five degree up eight
degree back sweeps um both 35 mil clamps uh on my down country is
bike i have a 15 mil rise bar and on my trail bike enduro bike i have a 35 mil
rise bar wow mm-hmm what about you j-rad i am running the 1up carbon bar on my yeti sp150 yep
and i love that bar and i'm earning this the stock yeti carbon bar on my other
bike it's 20 mil rise 780. i think uh 770 on my espn50 because i cut it a little
bit too much on accident 780 on the 115.
pro tip do not cut your bars too narrow because you cannot make them lighter afterwards didn't you take high school wood shop
where they teach you like measure twice cut once yes what they don't teach you
is don't be stupid because that's what i was yeah i guess on my bars i run 750 width
on all my bikes nice across the board yeah i do 760. 750 or 760. i'm confused now jared got
me confused you forgot your own handlebar what that's like forgetting your shoe size i cut them once dude now run it
but do you measure twice then cut once i know where
a lot of times it literally says it right on the bar now no i probably just closed my eyes when i did it honestly it just
brewski's before the handlebar cutting i cut a couple bars here and there so
yeah i i am also riding the the one up bars i like those i i just i mean i don't
know i don't have any crazy preference but i do like one ups whole unique thing with the
vertical compliance and lateral stiffness whew you know how i know that because you did
the video an entire video about handling your tested like five different handlebars driving one bike yeah i know i've said this and i
said in the video too but i i'm still this is still one of the things that blew me away these days i mean i test a lot of stuff
right we all do and a lot of times it's like i can't really tell i mean like i can kind of tell a difference it's like a little bit
of a difference it's like it's negligible like novice riders might not but and i i
thought this handlebar thing was going to be like that i was like all right we're going to go out here and we're going to have the same bike on the same trail everything the same
but we're going to swap it i'm going to ride five different handle bars in like one stint and i was like there's no way
i was like these are all going to be the same like i'm going to be like fighting to the back scars of my head to be like what was the
difference between this bar and that part but it wasn't i was shocked so they all had
a different feel and the one-up bars were way more supple way more subtle i mean that's what they say they do yeah and it was actually
true and i was just i was just impressed but then in like the rental bars those things felt like a steel pipe they were
the most rigid things ever super stiff super stiff but it wasn't bad you know in in a set like
i actually prefer climbing with the rental bars like you have better power transfer because like if you're out of the saddle climbing because where
i'd ridden that day too is like that technical climb um it's like out of the saddle climb when you're like pushing with your leg
and pulling with your hand like you don't want your bars to flex at all right so like on an xc bike i would
run rental bars you know i and they just had a really stiff feel to them that i that i
liked climbing it felt like it was just more power transfer but they just beat you up on the downhill like they're just way more
rigid than some of the other stuff and then and then sort of you had like the bars in between which you trusted like the truevative descendant
uh the raceface next r those were kind of like somewhere in the middle there where they like weren't overly stiff but weren't like incred you
know weren't super supple like the one up bars the one up bars actually were just totally different so ever since we made that video and i tested all those
i've been just riding the one up bars ever since but again it's not like it's not this like major change right
and it's and it's something that if you didn't do that back to back test on the same trail same bike same everything like
you would never notice right you know yeah if you have hand fatigue or like hand pain
then those one up bars do make sense or you're riding a lot of braking bumps so yeah but i've ridden eight degrees
back five up eight and five 760 width on all my bikes for uh forever
yeah wow can you stick the same width on all your bikes i normally do yeah i just haven't really
i just never really like felt like going around cutting the bars in the 115 i was like whatever i'll just leave them they're close enough
five mils on each side what am i real my thing was like if i rode if i had one bike so if i had
my trail bike that had say seven sixties and then i put 780 on my downhill bike
i would get on the downhill bike and i'd be like oh these feel really wide which is kind of nice right you're on a downhill bike you want to feel like that but then i would ride the
downhill bike at a bike park i'd go back to my trail bike and i'd be like oh this feels horrible like i would just feel like they were too narrow and like i was
gonna it was just i couldn't take the change like the change was too jarring to my my ocd you know even 10 mils you think
you could notice 10 mils of the difference five on each side absolutely what if i blindfolded you and i told you that one
was each what if i what if i screwed it with your head and did you made you do it that's our next blindfold video
yes if jeff can tell the difference between seven seven seven eighty i think i can tell yeah um yeah that's my biggest thing if
i test a stock bike bars are like really tactile especially the sweep did you change the
remember those easton bars that had like it was like an odd one degree backsweep or something no no
sorry something about it was like two degrees different than most bars and it was just like oh this feels well i feel like that's
another story like degree difference you know it's like that but yeah yeah but like hand placement like
if your hands are in a different place like you could easily have your hands in different spot five mils you wouldn't notice no way dude i would
what if you have different grips your palm is at the edge of the grip and your finger is right on the brake lever it's all like
that that's our next test i think that goes the same thing too is like i run the same grips
on all my bikes right and the same bar width yeah yeah so i prefer that too yeah it's but um
what uh when was last time we rode alloy bars jeff whoof uh oh i have i have some alloy
bars on my gravel bike that i keep in our pennsylvania store the what is that thing salsa chamber
storm chaser yeah i have allied bars on that um i don't know that also just has a rigid
fork and like yeah rc tires i haven't ridden alloy bars on like a normal mountain bike
yeah you we should have tested those why didn't we do that oh i don't know we should have like
thrown one alloy bar in that same back-to-back test we have to redo this size 20 20. up
until i ran the newest carbon bars on my enduro bike i was running alloy bars for
probably at least two years yeah what'd you think in terms of like supple i kind of liked the way they feel
better a bit yeah alloy bars alloy bars on the big bike
um i don't know they just felt a little different a little bit it's just different flex it's like going from an alloy frame to carbon frame
they both are good you're both gonna be fast and you're gonna like ride your best on it but they just feel different i feel like
that's how bars are too just frequency is a little bit different feedback's a little different
i don't think i really prefer one or the over the other but there's there's a difference there yeah well i mean the biggest thing too
is the price and the weight yeah right so alloy bars are a little less than half typically less a little less than half
the cost of any carbon bar um and they're much heavier so you know
and so we recently the reason we're talking about this we recently did a handlebar buyer's guide video on youtube
and a big in-depth article on the topic to kind of demystify all of that right like what are the various materials
what's the difference between them the prices what are the most common widths rises sweeps we put all that silver stuff in
the video and yeah i would my guess on the most common width for like general mountain bikers 780
what do you think yeah i agree 780 i think so too yeah yeah and then rise and sweep eight and
five i mean almost every bar is like that there's a few that aren't yeah rental is different it's a seven
yeah it's like one degree off but it does feel different yeah it does yeah one degree does make a difference
and that could even be the difference between like your wrists hurting and not hurting yeah when i was racing xc i ran i think
a 9 or a 10 degree backsweep bar wow um just for those long days it kind of get put you more in a like
i don't want to say beach cruiser position but like a more comfortable position more relaxed for your wrist instead of like kind of moto esque feel
where the menthols feel very moto yeah ergonomic position ergonomic yeah so when i was racing
and spending way too many hours on a bike yeah i ran more back sweep yeah yeah that makes sense versus like
those like envy bars or flat bars that are just like a straight bar and you're like this your
elbows are out and stuff yeah yeah different different feel there yeah well cool that's handlebars hopefully uh we
educated you a lot on handlebars and now a word from our sponsors
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the dust lather on and have the riding experience of a lifetime
and now back to the show let's talk about the uh the next topic
Commencal Care Program
the common saw care program so to to preface that common sol is a consumer direct mountain
bike brand from andorra they've been around a long time i think everyone knows who common soul is but when i say consumer direct what that
means is that they sell right off of their website directly to you the consumer which means
a bike shop doesn't sell it this if you want to learn more about the historical model of bike brands bike shops as retailers
consumer direct we made a whole video called consumer direct bike brands are they destroying or evolving the industry
a lot of people were surprised at our take on that because i think it's kind of good you know especially for the higher end segment which a lot of people
would probably not say that if they owned a bike shop like i do but i think it's good like i was just honest
about that in the video that's what we like to do and uh yeah so watch that video if you're curious more on like the
particular business model behind the thing but what's what's important here is one of the main issues which was discussed in
that video is warranties and service right so if you buy a bike directly from a brand
like yt or common sol or canyon and then you have a something that needs a warranty or some particular part that
broke right like a you know what would break even building it out of the box that's true something could be wrong
yeah yeah and so you don't have a bike shop to support you right because you didn't buy it there right and the whole value of a retailer
is you can just walk right back there drive right back there or call them up and figure it out but it's harder for these consumer direct bright
bands to deal with that and they got a bad rap i think probably canyon got the worst wrap i don't know if they fixed it
but they had a bad rap for like yeah they would sell you a bike something would go wrong with it and you know like just maybe use a
warranty issue something was like a warranty issue some component on there and then they would just like ghost you yeah that's a nightmare situation it's a
bad situation yeah especially if you just spent five grand or ten grand on a bike that'd be super frustrating so i think
most of these brands have fixed that problem but it's it's hard to tell you know but i do remember for a long time there
every time one of these brands would pop up on pink bike people would just rip them from like terrible support the hard part too
is well canyon and common saw were not usa based nyt
yt is german none of them are they're so when they were first coming here they're coming here on a very
um what what do you call a subsidiary like based location yeah exactly not a lot of yeah
in here yeah so that also led to it and then obviously people who have bad experiences are gonna talk more
so yeah the one star review is always the they're gonna be the loudest person yeah yeah it's very loud yeah
yeah so that's so that did happen so what's common salt doing to help that the care program tell us what it is liam
um so yeah it seems like common soul is coming up with the common self care uh basically tech questions uh settings
after unpackaging maintenance tips and warranty um pretty much if if you call common
soul and they cannot help you by walking it through it i i think they facetime um they might facetime you and
try to help you with a tip or a setup and so if that if they cannot help you there or you
don't have the technical skills or tools required commonstall will basically help you find
a local shop that i don't know if it's approved or just a shop of your choice to take your
bike to and common saw will help cover the cost of the repair so basically they're offering
to support you taking it to a local shop yeah i mean how well that works i guess is yet to be
seen from common soul bike owners but it is a good idea because i have you know i've been in the bike industry for
a long time before i started worldwide which is over 10 years ago i worked at just a traditional brick and mortar local bike shop i mean liam
you worked at a traditional brick and mortar yeah and these consumer brands have a
really bad rap because people get pissed you know like typical bike shop owners and bike shop staff like do not like when you roll
your consumer direct bike brand in there that you they didn't make any money off of and they're like look at this warranty problem it's like i want to help you
with that youtube uh youtube video idea should we buy a consumer direct bike
and then bring it to five local shops
yeah yeah like hidden cameras on our glasses or something yes yeah you know because because it kind of
is and i think also i think it's changing but i think there's kind of that bike shop snob
mentality and you kind of got a bad feel right away when you brought in this consumer
direct bike brand right yeah like this guy probably slapped it together has no idea what he's doing and then we're just gonna pretty much
rebuild this whole bike yeah right like yeah that that's part of it i think the other part was like the
warranty issue right so yeah warranties in general for some of the component like any shop that's dealing with that's
losing they're losing their ass on it to some extent right so like if if any shop sells a bike and let's just
say the rear shock like something's wrong seals are bad whatever warranty issue starts leaking customer brings it back
like they're not they can't charge the customer for that the brand that made the rear shock is certainly not going to reimburse them for any of this so now
they have to out of their own pocket you know house the bike take the shock off talk to the
brand ship it back to the brand get it back from the brand put it back on the buy call the customer like who's paying for that the shop is right
so it's a hassle it's a headache and it's the risk you take when you sell the bike to begin with yeah and you hope
that you don't have warranty issues with it uh now if someone waltzes in with a consumer direct
bike you didn't make any money off that to begin with right so you kind of feel as a business owner like well i'm gonna
do this warranty for free now you know like i didn't sell you that bike and that's where and then the
person's like well what the heck like but you you sell you carry rock shock or fox or dvr or whatever this rear shock
is that has a problem and then they're like well so what like yeah we could contact them for you but like and it's just this awkward like well
you're gonna pay us because it's a warranty like we're not gonna work for free we didn't make any money it's only it's just it's this very uncomfortable
like business model clash of a situation and that's what consoles trying to
address it seems like you know then they're going to be like oh we'll actually just you know pay that bike shop to help you with that
so and then everyone's defense is kind of everyone's in the right almost right yeah as a consumer yeah as a consumer
your product's broken you're bummed as a bike shop owner employee you're like well
i didn't make any money off this so i don't want to really help you know so yeah it's cool to see comments all
come up with a solution and actually on their site to add to that it looks like there's two
different kind of faqs to run through one for your common saw products so mainly would be frame yeah and then your
third-party brands so suspension wheels et cetera drive drain drive yeah yeah no i like it i mean i think
it's i think it's a good deal um because like i can see it's it's just trying to solve an an issue with with what's going on with
all that so yeah totally i mean it's like you know when we sell a bike obviously we offer lifetime tunes right yeah and this is
basically their version of that it's like we're helping out the consumer with some of the associated costs with
maintenance and repair yeah and i guess it'll be interesting to see if it's if it's legit
yeah i would imagine they're gonna do it well sorry as outside of the industry i'd probably be on a comments hall bike
if i'm being honest yeah yeah yeah like if we if you didn't work at a shop yeah if i didn't work shop had no
you know allegiance or tie to any shop or brand common soul is a great great brand with great value yeah
yeah they don't even make carbon bikes crazy call me crazy but i don't know if you
mean you're cruising i don't know if you love carving you've been wanting 70 ml
yeah i mean they definitely are very cool bikes like yeah you know there's definitely a lot to that yeah i
would if i was outside of the industry i would still buy from a local shop
just because i don't want to do any of my own maintenance like i'd want to be able to just buy it go and ride it and take it in and just
be like yeah can you guys just like worry about all this like just take care of all of it but that really depends on where you're at if you want to do your
own maintenance what your budget is all of that i would more maybe i would get a consumer direct bike brand and i
would use velofix um if there was one in my area but if you weren't in the industry
maybe you would be more inclined to work on your own bike too uh you know if i had the same free time
availability that i have now no the answer is no that's another factor right
yeah it depends on what you do for a career fair enough how busy your calendar is
on a daily basis right so i don't know we could talk about that forever
Video Call with Micah Rice Executive Director of the Pikes Peak APEX
and now here's a quick clip of me with micah rice the race director of the pikes peak apex out in colorado springs
we talked about the current state of mountain bike racing given the pandemic and some quick tips on how to start a
mountain bike race event yourself in your own local community
okay great micah thank you for joining us on the podcast today we
really appreciate you coming on board um just wanted to ask you a couple things you know with your
racing expertise um so yeah can you tell us a little bit about your
um you know your experience with racing you know given the pandemic and like the state of everything going on right now
yeah i mean it's been all over the board right i mean uh we really saw just over a year ago everything kind of shut down
um but you definitely seem to be coming out of it now um there were some
very select events that happened last year um and uh you know we kind of got through
it a lot of virtual events i think people really kind of got on board with with that um and and kind of rallied
around it in that direction now but even just in the last few weeks you've just seen everybody just come out
full steam getting ready for the summer and a lot of events kind of announcing that it's all on and and uh it's been
great that's so awesome that's that's a huge relief like it was such a pain during the pandemic like all these
events get like sea otter getting cancelled and all these big events and you know it's just really nice to see they're all kind of starting back up
again so that's awesome to hear yeah and i think that you know the virtual events kind of got people through the year
i'm a big proponent of in-person you know racing events where you're actually racing people
i think that people uh got through that and and we're excited about that for only so
long and i think people are really itching to get back on their bikes to in-person events now so
totally good to see a lot of events filling up and people getting excited about this
summer awesome awesome well tell me a little bit about like what it would take you know if i wanted to put on a race
here in my local area yeah you know and i work for an organization called sports strategies
and essentially what we do is we go into these different communities and make recommendations on on how to kind
of leverage you know some assets that you might have to create an event so a trail system or a waterway or some great roads for a
grand condo and so you know we do we do a good bit of that we work with directly with the
cities definitely try to leverage your convention and visitors bureau because
they often have all kinds of programs even money set aside to bring people into town
so those are the people to talk to and kind of start with economic development within those cities
everyone's looking for ways to not only create a direct economic impact to their cities
whether that be a hotel room sold or restaurants but also you know how do you just raise
the value of living in that city so kind of those those aspects are interesting ways to kind of come about
it within your city itself because that starts you know pulling levers on on real decision
makers there right awesome awesome those are some good tips absolutely
um well tell me a little bit more about the apex and what you have going on with
the apex out there in colorado springs as well yeah the high speed apex here in colorado springs was an event that we
built from scratch uh first year was was 2020 which was a
pretty tough year to actually uh have to benefit we pulled it off we had a ton of support
from the city so it was the end of september of 2020 uh it is a four day mountain bike challenge on the
slopes of pikes peak a presenting sponsor is rockshox and as you guys probably know the rockshox r
d facility is right here in colorado springs right so uh they're testing bites on uh
and shops you know and forks and everything else right here on the trails that we're racing on
wow but it's uh it's essentially the it's a four-day event you start off with
a short prologue that's about an hour effort and then on friday and saturday we do two big loops so
40 to 50 mile loops that are really get out there up onto the slopes uh up near and over
in at least one case over ten thousand feet um one of the biggest hits was last year
coming down to jones park and captain jack's trails that's kind of one of the big deal trails here
where at the end of the stage there was literally a 30 minute downhill to the finish so if you don't see in
cross-country events and then turns them into off that distance on the downhill but
totally people kind of loving that and then the last day is um you know kind of more like a
20-ish mile thing that's over by noon and then we can drink beer and head on
home nice you know last year it was just really strictly a bike race itself
just because of the pandemic we really had to kind of strip it down just to a basic rule but this year we're
really looking forward to doing a lot more we've got a kickoff party plan and a post event
party planned and an expo and other other events going on so
we're excited about turning this bike race into a real event here in colorado springs and that's an
event that we built um for the uh pikes peak outdoor recreation alliance
is actually a non-profit event wow and um all that money that we raised just
goes directly back to the trail system through the trail stewardship so we work with
local groups like our imba chapter and things like that to to maintain and build new trails and use
this event to kind of shine spotlight on the trails here so
yeah we're excited about bringing it and bringing it back for a long time that's awesome i mean it
sounds like a ton of fun and honestly i wish i could make it out there for the race like i would love to
um but it's yeah it's awesome yeah i know i know i know
absolutely it'll be a good time and you know we tried to create an event that was you
know interesting to a lot of different people it's got some technical aspects to it which is going to make you know mountain bikers happy um
and you know for the pros we have a 25 000 prize purse that's split um evenly between men and
women for the four days awesome but but then we do some things that you know are are more akin to the gravel
community so we do a big mass start like everyone starts together kids you know masters it doesn't matter
everyone rolls out at the same time um we do you know we've got at least one day that's probably
80 percent dirt road wow there there's definitely some single track involved in that day too but
but a lot of you know wide open gravel climbing to that's kind of enjoyable look at some
great views up there in the front range of colorado um and then you know the prologue that we do is an in-town park
it's right here in downtown colorado springs it's an 11 mile loop and targets
right here they shut down the park for us close it off and uh it's a pretty technical
single track loop that we do um we do time trial style we have to send each rider off every 30 seconds
racing and trying to catch the person in front of you nice it's really kind of an interesting format that has been
really well received i think by the cycle that's awesome yeah it sounds like ton of fun and with the money just going right back
into the community and the trails i mean it sounds like a great cause as well yeah i know it's it's not
it's a it's a fun time and uh we got a lot of people from all over all over
the us joining us last year we expect that we'll have more this year as
well and um it's not crazy altitude you know carlos brings us about six thousand feet
uh but we do have as i said a couple of days where you climb up there in the nine to ten ten thousand
times right uh but it's um it's it's a it's always a good time
people are really having good work that's awesome that's awesome well micah thank you so much for joining me today and giving us an idea
of what racing is like and uh and yeah what the what the apex is like and for some tips to
put on a local race and and yeah we really appreciate you coming on today yeah thanks a lot jared uh hopefully you
can make it on spring oh i would love to thank you so much again and uh yeah we'll talk to you
soon awesome take care you have a good one here we go with some listener questions
Listener Questions
around mixing drive trade bread components and bike geometry for former bmx riders
that was great that was not neither of those were audio effects those were just the
real voices of jared and liam and if you didn't understand what he said it was that
this last segment is listener questions around mixing drivetrain brand components in bike geo for former bmx
writers first question ole tobias olei i thought that was like my name's old
bias old tobias that's hard his name is spelled o-l-e he's from norway no it's only that's probably oh hola
i don't know none of us are cultured enough to know how to pronounce it mr tobias sorry mr tobias he says hi i love the
podcast question have any of you ridden a mixed drive train of shimano cassette and chain
with saram gx access derailleur and shifter thoughts greetings from norway well the reason we
picked this question because a lot of people ask it and also we're we're i don't think
anyone's here in agreement on this which is drama drama
drama in the podcast triangle all right so my answer is no i've not done that and i would never do that that's just ridiculous
that's just no like i'm not going to do that and i'll let me hear my case you're a purist i'm a
purist i am a purist no i one i just it just pains my soul to see like mixed
brands like that it just seems like something's wrong like you just i just don't like it it bothers me emotionally from that sense and from
like a logical sense uh in 2020 actually i went to germany february
right before the world shutdown february of 2020 i went to germany to sram's drive train manufacturing and design facility which
was an awesome trip and i got to see stuff that the common men may have never
seen and i saw things such as i think there was about 20 of these glass boxes that had drive
trains inside of them and all of these lasers pointed at the drivetrain and so when i say drivetrain
it's like a cranks chain derailleur shifter it's all inside of this glass box all these lasers are pointed at it
and it's just like pedaling really fast and shifting through all the gears and there's all these lasers and cameras
and there's like 20 of these things the amount of engineering that sram puts into every aspect of like
how all that stuff meshes together is literally mind-blowing it's astonishing
and i'm sure shimano has the same stuff right yeah and being there seeing the development process talking to the real engineers in germany
who making this stuff like blew my mind about the intricacy and the detail they put into all this stuff so
it's just it was astonishing like what they're doing to like design every mil like 10 100 of a millimeter of every
little like you know piv thing on the cassette the chain it's it's just wild so i just think it all should go
together yeah so your point is it's designed to go go together keep it together designed and engineered in
every way shape and form to be paste all together as like a whole unit so like if you have a sram
you know and this i guess we're talking things that touch each other in like the the the chainring the chain
the cassette right the derailleur like all that's in the shifter obviously right because it controls the trailer so
like all those things that are interconnected like that like obviously you can swap a crank out it doesn't matter
um but yeah so so that's my opinion i i would never do that i don't see but the reason to do that is
um i just think this stuff's all engineered to go together so that's that's my thought liam uh i have kind of two parts to this
um i personally would never set out to mix match like jeff i would never set
out to do it but if i was in a situation where say i had a you know slx or xt shimano drivetrain
12 speed and i was like well i kind of want wireless but i don't really want to like up change all my components that's
really expensive freehub bodies get involved it gets complicated well what if i could just buy
a shift in derailleur upgrade kit and then run that and now i have a wireless drivetrain
with my shimano stuff most cost of cost effective route maybe i would do that
just from a pure consumer customer i think that's why people ask that question yeah because they have like
free of body issues and they already have a shamanic cassette for your body and like exactly and i think that's where mr uh
ol olay is coming from is he wants to upgrade to gx axis um
so in that sense it could make sense does it work we have a rider troyd in that makes
questionable bike decisions all the time and is completely in his head about most of them yeah he's a bit of a head case but he's
a really talented phenomenal mountain biker yeah so super fast there's that um and he has been running xt or xtr
chain and cassette with ceram axis xor xx1 shift and derailleur for better part of
a year now why did he even do that i think it was the same type of thing he
liked this he bought it he bought a complete e-bike no he bought a complete e-bike that came with shimano and it was like a
pain for free hub bodies to swap stuff out and he had access or he wanted access and he
kind of just ended up with that but he personally says which again
is take with a grain of salt yeah crane assault it's it's detroit in his thoughts and uh
what he thinks is better he still runs 2.3 tires so that's that um on his downhill bike
with with all the love from troydon but uh he's he says it's just really good and
he likes it better yeah so maybe probably does maybe there's something i don't see why it wouldn't they are
pretty similar realistically if you look at these things like there's not any major differences maybe there's something to it maybe it's onto
something i would never personally set out to do it but if you're in a situation it works yeah
yeah yes someone should make like a cross-compatibility chart right i mean i don't want to do that no
no not me [Laughter] because people do ask they're in that same boat and they they want to know
what the cross compatibility actually is between these things but man to like who's no one's going to
do that neither the brands are going to do that no no no no no guinea pigs could we could be the guinea pigs we could
it could be an interesting yeah it might be useful it could be maybe we should do that yeah that's our next viral youtube video
could be do you have any thoughts jared what are you doing i side with you liam
where i'm not gonna if i have a shimano drivetrain on my bike i'm not gonna you know especially if i'm cost
conscious i'm not gonna just like completely ditch a bunch of new stuff just so i can upgrade you know maybe if i'm at the point where
like it's worn down and i was gonna replace it anyways then i'd switch over um but yeah i'm not gonna like actively
go out and put a shimano cassette and like drivetrain and then have
you know access shifter and you know in derailleur um i'm just gonna go up probably all of
one or the other but yeah if i got a new bike and it has like xt xtr or whatever on it
then yeah hell yeah i'll upgrade and put electronic shifting on there because you're not gonna put di2
well they don't know what is di2 excuse me what is it what is it it's like intelligence that was a joke yeah
it was like no one knows that shimano doesn't knock yeah tomorrow does not make a electronic
12-speed mountain bike drive train right so they make an 11-speed one they make it speed which and you can have all
these cables inside your frame and batteries and junction boxes and it's great oh that sounds dope i'll have that
yeah check out our previous podcast for shimano patents on electric drivetrain suspension and dropper post yeah
for sure i mean if you're gonna buy an electronic drivetrain there's no way on earth you would buy shimano one over a stream one right now
yeah um but who knows in the mountain bike world yeah yeah roadies are another story those guys are
traditionalists to the core yes yeah that's strange i don't even wanna i don't even know anything about those people and that's for a whole other
podcast those people those people that's how we refer to people who ride road bikes around here those people
who are you talking about those people oh man all right well yeah there you go
olay tobias uh hopefully that's it's probably ol we're saying olay
because we're all from southern california and we all have some bit of spanish knowledge so we're thinking
it's probably yeah that's what i said norway old yeah tobias and this is probably not in tobias it's probably like
tobias i'm really very sorry for butchering your name jared remember to email him
back and tell him we answered it so he can like he's probably gonna pee his pants laughing at this whole like name pronunciation
send us a voice message over the mountain bike podcast oh instagram yeah yeah if i pronounce
your name please yeah perfect or even a you know a video one we'd love to see your face yeah and i would
next question mike finch is there a geometry that former bmx riders prefer
with mountain bikes including handlebar rise liam you are a former bmx
rider what do you think um i think it it depends on what
type of riding you want to do on a mountain bike first and foremost uh if you're a bmx rider that's looking to go to mountain bike to basically do
similar types of riding bike park jumps kind of free riding aspects you're
probably going to want to go with like talking modern mountain bike sizing probably a little bit smaller of a bike
where if the height chart recommends you on a large maybe write a medium you'll probably feel more comfortable
with a higher rise bar and short stem short stem yeah really short stubby stem and you'll probably
feel more comfortable with like 15 to 20 sag in your rear end than 30
recommended yeah something like that a little stiffer a little taller a little shorter bike that's going to mimic more of a bmx
maybe 27.5 probably yeah could be 27.5 wheels yeah um yeah if we look at raymond um
social media uh guru here he's very similar but he wrote bmx
longer into his you know where he's at now than i did i kind of jumped off and did other not
many people ride bmx past the age of 20 because it's just so hard on your body yeah exactly free stuff yeah i ride a dirt
jumper now i can't ride a bmx bike it's hard too big of a difference from 20 inch wheel to two nine wheel yeah
um crazy so but raymond spikes are very much like this he sizes down
short stem 50 ml rise bars um yeah like a 32 mil stem 30 32 32 35 mil
stem and then a 50 millimeter rise bar yeah and this suspension is always incredibly stiff yeah way stiffer than
you would actually want to set it up yeah yeah yeah geo wise probably a bike that's a touch
steeper head tube angle um [Music] if you're looking to ride like that now
if you're just looking at geo i think the only thing that makes a meaningful difference to someone who came from bmx
is the chainstay length that's true yeah i don't think they notice a head angle as much because it's just so like the machine is so different like
head angle and bb height and like reach like you don't even i mean you want the reach to be smaller because you're used to that so you just
size down the frame like you said then chain stay length because like that's going to determine how easily you
can lift that front wheel off the ground bunny hop that thing and manual and wheelie whatever that's what bmx riders
do right like they're just more they're they're playing with the bike yeah yeah so yeah come like when that you say that
comes to mind it's like evil bikes their bikes still are like 4 30 4 32 chain stays where
most 29ers now especially modern because the front end's growing so the rear end has to go to compensate
i'm even close to like 4 40 4 45 for some of those new modern like aggressive race bikes where evil's still
in that 430 number so yeah different brands have like different ideologies right i mean i think years ago we were making those
youtube videos comparing like yetis to evils and kind of takeaway from those videos was like well yeti's slogan is what race-built
race bread or something right yeah race brad yeah so like they're yeti's like building their bikes for
racers because they want them to go really fast and race situations and like evil is building their bikes for
a different situation yeah it's fun pedaling yeah just pedaling up a fire road and then just slashing corners and
doing stoppies and cuddies and whatever so yeah so you'll probably gravitate more
towards one brand than the other when it comes to some geo things that's true but a lot of it's like change day length i think and sizing
down and the various mods you said yeah so yeah did you ever ride bmx bikes jared
back like oh man back in the day i mean i think i probably stopped when i tried to start doing bar spins and i
started eating [ __ ] yeah yeah i definitely i wrote a little bit of bmx but not enough to where
like i could call myself like an xbmx or like raymond or yeah you know or whatever you rode moto more so right
yeah a little more moto and yeah i definitely like you know bring my bmx bike just like you know
mess around in the desert or whatever but yeah definitely like it was not good enough like yeah we would just mess
around like build jumps here and there like before dirt jumping was a thing right like we just rode our bmx under jumps
yeah yeah and actually raymond's still an incredible bmxer when oh yeah he just landed a backflip last week nice
yeah yeah he's like oh you know i'm a little rusty i'm like yeah dude you're doing backflips come on
like no you shred come on let's be real oh man that sounds dangerous yeah i don't want to do that yeah you could probably do
one too speak for yourself yeah i don't know man backflips that's
like two years ago when did we go two years ago we have a sweet local durchem park sophoi i've never
even been anywhere but we didn't go to lake we did go to the skate park down the street you and i remember yeah we did raymond
yeah yeah we all went the wendy one or uh yeah yeah nice that's a sad excuse for a
skate park but it's something yeah there you go you got a sweet dirt jumper you should
you know i know i don't ride that bike enough but i do like it i mean the problem with dirt jumpers if you build a nice one no one's gonna buy it
from you for like even any remotely a reasonable value so i'm just gonna probably keep that thing until i'm in the grave
yeah so i like that bike and smart yeah i'll ride that at some point i don't know when but
i'm saying that eventually it's sweet yeah maybe in the winter yeah i'll write it in the winter there you go
long enough for everybody you'll forget about that promise oh totally well mike finch hopefully that helped
you out and made sense and uh yeah there you go if you're a former bmxer there are some tips on that
and other than that that's it that's all for episode what was this 83 83 of the mtb
podcast i would like to thank petals and pints a local brewery and restaurant here in thousand oaks
california because i drank just one throughout the episode of this podcast one of their
knight rider baltic porters and i feel pretty drunk
i'm getting a little a little like it's eight percent it's not that much but it's more yeah it's more of
yeah jeff's defense for listeners it's a talk hand yeah yeah yeah 16 ounces 16. 16 ounces i'll
give you ride home if you're watching this on youtube you can see it we do post these videos to the mtb podcast youtube channel
as well if you want to actually see our faces or just prefer to consume your podcasts through the youtube platform you can do
that otherwise please write and review us wherever you get your podcasts jared's laughing because i said that
last time i stole that exact phrase from the wall street journal podcast i listen to everyone and every other podcast
every morning okay do they have a new one every day dude the wall street journal does a podcast a.m and p.m edition every day
wow saturday and sunday national holidays wow there's a lot of stuff to talk about i guess on wall street it's yeah they do like
political news and just general world news and okay what what is this an advertisement yeah let's wrap it up
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